Chinese Street Fighting Kung Fu San Soo

Well we are almost at that 1/2 year mark and things have been pretty darn quit.  San Soo Sifu just faded; Howard is off doing his thing; Ron is getting more education which is very cool, heck the rest must have ran out of things to say.

 So let start something here and see who is who.

I am a member of several site and ready just to pay attention to three; mine, tennessee and JP's.  We have some cool martial artist out there but it seems to me that some are very narrow minded and self rightous with their opinion meaning it is fact.  Now I am not one to stir the pot, well maybe I am, but I read the posting and think it out prior to answering or at least lately I have.  I am a firm believer everyone has something to offer no matter what it is.  Some may just want to advertise their goods and call it a day and every now and than post some thing that just does not fit into the conversation at hand.

 

I have made it a case to give permission for new user but I think it may be more of a pain than anything else for no ones has sign up and is waiting for approval so I am going back to the public so we may get some new blood on the site.  I will moderate it so it stays pretty clean for this is a family site and I know kids do veiw the pages.  So lets get the ball rolling give you opinion about other sites who are one sided and figure out how we can make it better for the San Soo and Martial Arts community as a whole.

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Jeffrey P. Cornelius SR.
San Soo Michigan
5th degree black

Hi Jeff,

 Yes, we're out here.  Internet message boards are an interesting venue.  Sometimes they thrive, sometimes they don't, but usually there are up and down trends.  It seems that everyone I know is busy, and this includes myself.  Because of that, we, who don't have a lot of extra time, only enter or start discussions that we are feeling quite strongly about at the time.  This is only natural.  I only post when I have the time, because though I feel strongly about quite a few things in the martial arts, I am often pressed for time.  I think this is true for many of us.

 Well, you wanted to get the ball rolling about, as I understand it, what we like about message boards and what we don't.  So...because I feel strongly about this, and I have the time...I'm going to elaborate just a little.

 Petty discussions are commonplace and, quite honestly, make me weary.  Flame wars are completely useless.  What matters most are those discussions that involve serious questions about any aspect of the art and the serious answers that go along with them.  Content about strategy, mindset, development of power, historical concepts, breaking down techniques and forms to glean as much as possible out of them, building up of our students, as opposed to tearing anyone down, discussions about theory and relation to the laws of motion, moral ethics, pathophysiology of injuries, training tips and techniques, translations of important aspects of the art into English...these are just some of many things that matter to the serious student of San Soo.

Any petty person can enter into a discussion and "stir things up."  It doesn't take much intelligence to read a thread and find out what makes people irritable.  It also doesn't take any wisdom to try to find fault with someone and publicly challenge them on a minor point just to prove one's one superiority in knowledge or character.  What matters is that we do this art honor and our instructors honor - all those who lived and died to give us what we have today.  The message boards that really matter help the art to grow by open discussion (naturally within boundaries of respect), by allowing people to lay out their real questions and answers even when they are in direct disagreement.  The wise Jewish King Solomon said, "As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another."  By talking about things openly in an atmosphere that welcomes it in a spirit of moving forward, we can all reap rich rewards.

 Jeff, I think many of us will continue to frequent this board and some others as long as "profitable" talk is taking place.  I appreciate your heart for this art and have seen you, even with opposition, stand firmly for what you believe to be true.  My take is, keep up the good work, and don't let the quiet times get you down.

Respectfully,

 Dave Lorenson

Very cool message and you are right about everything you wrote about.  I think we need more possitive messages and some where we need to get back on track with San Soo, medical aspect and the list goes on.  Don I like all your posting for they are sincere, I think every one should post even if it is to just say hey out there.

 I am busy and do not get to the boards enough myself.  So I stop with a few of the ones I was A member of and just keep up with the three I mention, that is good enough for me.  For a while there Jon was posting some great stuff on techniques, I like to see soem put in writing a form they like well well be long but interesting to read with out the figures working in each direction.  LOL

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Jeffrey P. Cornelius SR.
San Soo Michigan
5th degree black

A San Soo teacher opening his first school sent me some thought regarding belt promotion of his students. The following is my response. I thought the contents might be good for promoting conversation. What are your opinions on this subject? 

In my opinion white to yellow is the only chance you have to instill confidence in the new student. They need to believe they are being successful in their endeavor to learn. A little psychology is needed. The focus for you is to retain the student long enough to give you the opportunity to actually teach them San Soo. This won’t come in the first few months. The number of students who quit within the first three month is close to 90%.  The student really begins to learn after they gain some confidence in moving correctly and after a lot of praise from you. This is the time to learn to walk (as a toddler learns to walk). It’s really the same isn’t it? The time to learn balance, coordination, control, precision and the finer points of where the basic targets are and what and where their basic weapons are located on their body, how to make a fist and how to strike with it. Of course basic blocks, kicks, falls and grabs. Every lesson should be written down exactly as it was taught. You also should have them show it to you exactly as it was taught taking into account their available skill development. Then encourage them to disregard the pattern of the lesson and begin to use the separate pieces of it in their workouts. This promotes automatic reaction and muscle memory, it develops neuron pathways in the brain.. Memorizing lessons is not the same as learning our art. Lessons are the tool we use to teach our art.

I am not a proponent of testing for several reasons. You can study for a test. In other words you can learn everything required for a test and still not have a command of the actual subject. A student can be so focused on a test that they fail to pay attention to anything else. It also puts focus on the belt and less on the art where it should be. This should not be a belt focused art; rather the focus should be on the journey not on the destination. 

Jimmy used to tell us he tested us everyday. We had to do our best everyday and when he determined we had accomplished the SKILLS not the lessons, he would give us our belt. He said he never missed a thing and he new everything we did. We were encouraged to focus and be serious, not to play. We were encouraged to forget the pattern of the lesson and use only the pieces in our free workouts. We were encouraged to create San Soo in our workouts every day. I'm talking from my experience with him as a white, yellow, green and brown belt student not from post black belt experience.

Horses (stances), target practice, anatomy. The basic 45 lessons are designed to teach these fundamentals if taught with a focus of what their purpose is and not of concentrating on fighting techniques. Fighting ability comes later, after achieving the required the combination of skills and knowledge. These lessons are not fighting they are designed to teach the alphabet of San Soo. Once the alphabet is learned the student can begin to make up words, larger and better as time goes by. Some of the lessons are 7, 8, 9 movements long…when in reality the fight would have ended with the first strike. Why do you think this is so? It is to teach the strikes and how to deliver them, to teach the flow of our movement. Always stepping with the same side as the delivered strike allows the student to be able to learn the circular movement of San Soo. One of the traps many of our teachers fall into is in teaching the basic 45 with using opposite step and strike, as in the natural movement which we use when we walk. Moving in this way stops the flow of movement and flow of follow through. It also eliminates the circular movement of our art and makes it all linear thereby possibly eliminating as much as half of our art. The basic 45 should not have a time limit you want to continue giving them until finished no matter how long that takes. Some come in less than others and shouldn’t miss out on those lessons. I think 6 months is too long to wait for the beginner. It’s possible they may become discouraged and think they are so uncoordinated that they just are incapable of learning it.  Usually 3 to 4 months is enough and with the yellow belt they have been rewarded for the hard work they have put in and thus encouragement is given in a real tangible way.  At that time they should have developed the skills required to learn the art. As far as getting them ready for demos, they are ready as soon as they have some control and confidence. You don’t have to get them ready.

I think to have any success with weapons (knife/gun) either attacking or defending requires control of your body, i.e. balance and coordination and should wait until basic skills have been accomplished. Close to the middle yellow belt.

My focus is always about the student achieving success at what they try to learn and not having too much of a struggle. If a student at any stage of training has too much of a struggle… what happens is they lose confidence in their ability to learn instead of gaining confidence in what they can accomplish day to day. It’s a simple art based on simple science and I believe a teacher should teach it simply.

The rest of your belts are really just enhancing on what you should have learned as a white belt. Sort of like a stack. Your foundation holds up the rest of the stack. What you put on top can be as varied and as fancy as you like because it has a simple and strong foundation which will never fail to hold it up.

You have probably heard a lot of this but I hope some of it gives you something to think about.

Sharon Wikel

Sharon,

That was an amazing post.  One of the best I remember reading...ever!  I think every San Soo student and every teacher (aren't we all still students anyways?) should read it.

I'm looking forward to finally meeting you at the picnic.  I've heard MANY great things about you . As it turns out, I'm in San Diego for the next 6 months and will be able to come up to LA for the picnic. 

Ron 

Sharon, you are amazing! that was a great post. I feel very honored to know and be instructed by you. In the short time that  I have been coming to your class at Master Rouse's Van Nuys school,  you have blessed me with much insight into this art. I'm looking very forward to more of the same. Thank you.

 

Formal Bow,

Don

Great post, especially the part where it reads;  "Memorizing lessons is not the same as learning our art. Lessons are the tool we use to teach our art"!   Not at anytime I have read about the basic 45's and how important they are to our art as it has been put here by Master Sahorn Wikel.  I am glad this was put up so all the students can read it [teachers especially].

I wish I could be out to California for the picnic to meet some of the folks who post here.  I know Ron well get some great pictures and hope he brings them to Nashville in July.  Chuck will has a blast during the seminar in Studio City and catching up with a lot of his training partners and friends that will last a life time, new and old.  To all have a great time at the picnic.  Sharon thank you for the posting for it is very good reading on our art!

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Jeffrey P. Cornelius SR.
San Soo Michigan
5th degree black

Master Sharon Wikel,

I agree excellent, excellent post. This should be a standard memorandum and/or self-actualizing tool for every student and especially teacher in this art.

Ron, Jeff, Don and who is "D*V*B"?? Thank you all for you kind words. I'm truly humbled by your response to my first post on this board.

Ron,  I look forward to meeting you at the picnic. There will be a lot of people there and I usually  keep a low profile. But please find me.

Sharon Wikel

Master Sharon,

   I liked your post more than anybody... because I'm the guy with the new school always asking you the questions.   

Thank you so much for all the help and advice you've given me in this past year. For those that have never corresponded with Master Sharon, not only is she a wealth of information (understatement), but an open book!

I think we all appreciate the, "Lessons learned" by seasoned teachers, and especially the,” How Jimmy did it" from one of those personally there. Keep 'em coming, your wisdom and advice to those in this art is more appreciated than you could ever know.

Thanks again for all you do

See you a week from Sunday. 

Sincerely,

Jason Wolfe

KFSS Instructor

Macomb, Illinois 

David Simons/Dave Lorenson Association

 

I relate working both sides to the way form is done with both side working.  For some it can be tuff but can work it out as Master Gatewood has done.  I think learning both sides gives back balance to the entire body and not just onde sided.  with both sides going you have double the arsenal for attack with equal amounts of strikes being acurate.  This will shorten the life of a fight very quickly. 

 

Now this is some cool stuff.

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Jeffrey P. Cornelius SR.
San Soo Michigan
5th degree black

Sharon, that is the best post I have seen reguarding San So.I agree 100%. See you at the picnic.

 

Chuck

Ron, good to see you posting on the board. We would like to have you on the San Soo Tennessee board as well. Good post reguarding doing lessons from both sides. I am left handed as you will remember, and have won a lot of fights because of a strong left. Boxers always circle away from your right hand and into the left. When I learned San Soo, every lesson was on the opposite side for me (me being left handed) and I think it has made me a better fighter. As Jimmy used to say, "I hit you with whatever is closer to you." I have aways taught my students from yellow up to learn the lesson from both sides and in no time I began to notice their ability to respond to an attack from any angle or side and use either side of their body to attack with. Jimmy did not teach learning a lesson from both sides, but you know as well as I (in demos I have seen and flet his left side) that he could use either side with extreme power if he wanted too. I guess it is up to each student how they learn to use both sides equally, but with my students I made sure they were never a one handed fighter.

Chuck

could not agree any more, thanks for posting here Ron, hope to read more in the futre.  To all have a great time at the Picnic, I will be there in spirit!

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Jeffrey P. Cornelius SR.
San Soo Michigan
5th degree black

Hey Chuck, Looking forward to seeing you and some of the other guys.  I heard that Janette Cook died, that is sad, she was very good, sure threw you around at the 84/85 demo.  heh, we will miss her. 

As you say what Jimmy said was important but to watch what and how he did it was more important, didn't we call it "learning by osmosis"?

See ya soon,

RG

Don't know why the line is through Jimmy's name, can't correct it??