Kung Fu San Soo in America

I just copied this from the TN site. Which I will probably do for most of my posts so everyone gets a chance to read and help keep both boards active. After all im sure most of us consider both these sister boards anyway. We're all bro's here.

 

How bout this one. First, I would like to say that this is not a bash post, nor a sarcastic post. I respect all of my extended family in San Soo as well as all other martial arts. I wanted to ask this, and it's probably a good time since the board(s) have been slow. why does it appear that there is such a need to cross train? I understand there are certain circumstances for example: -someone has trained in an art (not san soo) then converted to san soo, but still has some kind of driving force to stay with their original art. -or have seen a poor intital representation of san soo, then coverted to another art. -or, if someone just plain likes martial arts in general and wants to see what other people do, maybe because of the excuse to see how to defend against certain techniques. All of these are understandable, but Im talking about people who already do San Soo, but feel that they need to train in other arts (BJJ, MMA for example*just an example*) to "complete" their all around skills as a fighter. I dont understand this AT ALL. Not at all. I just dont see myself taking time to "dabble" in other arts and picking things out when I could spend ALL of that time perfecting a certain "craft". This post is not (that) biased to San Soo, Im just speaking from experience. I was somewhat of a self-trained boxer before I started training in San soo and I can say that I love boxing and it has done some good things for my training but it has also provided some big hurdles in my san soo training. I learned to hit really hard and learned angles of attack and accuracy, but still to this day I cant let loose on a heavy bag without my back foot coming up from time to time(like a boxer). I will hit with a strong strike and in a strong horse but that foot always seems to come up from time to time without me realizing it. What's the problem with that you say? Well some will argue that's not that big of a deal considering that boxers hit harder than just about anybody. True, but what if I'm fighting some one or more than one person and i swing and miss, that foot comes up and I get knocked off balance and get my ass kicked because of that one little thing. I know I have been trained in San soo to keep that foot down and stay solid, but because it was natural to me to pick it up, I lost. I just tainted my correct training and sacrificed for something else. I could have taken my time to correct that foot, but I chose to take time and cross train in boxing to learn to hit hard or what not, but that didnt matter when I got beat up. Now I have to train harder to eliminate this. This is just an example. Im speaking purely combat here. I have seen a number of arts over time and I have not seen anything to this date that cannot be trained for in San Soo. Sure other things, like the boxing can emphasize or enhance certain aspects, but if your goal is to learn to fight, It's probably there. Again, Im speaking purely combat here. I dont like BJJ at all, they do nothing that we dont, and if they do, we probably do it better. Sorry, just my opinion. Ive never been impressed. Same thing goes for Karate, Kenpo ect. Again, Ive never seen anything that cant be trained for in SS. Wrestling is an excellent ground fighting art. Not just American wrestling, but the Greek arts, Russian, or Indian wrestling (Kuski, the original)(?spelling) but mostly they train for fighting one person or for sport. So you can just eliminate fighting multiple people especially if they have weapons. Even the Phillipino art escrima, which is an awesome art and very effective. You dont want to mess with one of these guys. But, and a big fat But, you put a knife in a San soo guy's hands and watch out! Most of those techniques can be replicated. And the so called "real" combat/military arts Ive seen arent that bad but, in my opinion, are incomplete and are designed to train someone to fight or defend themself in a short amount of time. again, I feel the foundation is better in SS. I could go on and on, but it would take forever. Again, Im not saying that San Soo is the be all end all. Everyone takes a liking to an art because it fits their personal goals, or lifestyle or whatever. And its great. Martial arts are great and the fact that we live in an age where they are accessible is great as well. Actually, its a very beautiful thing. Different styles were created because someone took the time to perfect something for a specific goal. Just beautiful!! I just dont understand the want to supplement, or trying to find something that is thought to be missing from our great art. You guys cant tell me that this is not going on, you know it is and I know it is. And it will probably lead to a pollution of the art. Like I said, maybe there is just a lack of understanding of the art, or lack of quality instruction, or people just wanting to prove what they can do to a lot of people and the only way to do that is in a sport setting. Maybe the explosion of UFC and MMA did it. I dont know, I'm just throwing stuff out there. If Im clearly wrong, or Im talking out of my ass then please please please let me know. enlighten me. that's why I posted this. Ive always, always been taught to keep the art as pure as it was given to me. And we are all lucky to be learning pure in a time where there are still a # of 1st gen. masters around, and 2nd, 3rd. We are very close to the source. so I just dont see why some want to conform to fads. Maybe that will stir things up a bit. Until then, train hard, tip your bartender, and dont drink and drive. DVB

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As far as I am concern Kung Fu San Soo is a complete art (or at least for me); it has anything you can ask for in any situation if applied correctly.  I have been in other arts and they were fun but not what I was looking for in a fighting art.  This art can take the ill tempered man and make him humble once he has been in the art for a while.  This art has a way of being fun during training, I mean so can other arts but this one is unique when it comes to training.  I guess you have peaked out with the art then you are missing something or think you are missing something and venture off into other arts.  Funny thing is you come back to San Soo and the basic; cross training is not needed if you ask the right question to your instructor or ask on any San Soo site that cares about keeping it pure and simple.

 

Jeff

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Jeffrey P. Cornelius SR.
San Soo Michigan
4th degree black

When I was in elementary school, I was very interested in art, specifically sketching and drawing. One year at the Ann Arbor Art Fair, my family and I met up with an artist my father knew quite well, and had purchased paintings from in the past for his office. Here is the artist's current website: http://www.tomhalegallery.com/. The conversation eventually turned to my art interests, and he asked what types of art I liked to do. I said I enjoyed drawing but not really anything else like sculpture or watercolors.

Mr. Hale's reply is what was very relevant to this thread. He told me (really more so to my parents, I was like 7 years old...) that I should take every art class I had a chance to take, collect a diverse set of materials, and spend a little time in other art disciplines, even if I wasn't terribly excited about them. The reason is, every different field from pottery to digital art to photography offers a different approach to art. Hale's prior work with sculpture and photography helped him learn more about the lighting and angles in his two-dimensional paintings. He also worked for GM and Chrysler as a Styling Designer before doing freelance art, which really locked in the fundamentals.

When it comes to exploring other martial arts and cross-training, I would think it's a great idea with the condition that one already holds their black belt in their "home" school. In your article you focus on the different styles themselves, but personally I would be more excited about the people that you could meet going to other places. Forget comparing San Soo blocks vs. Karate blocks vs. BJJ blocks or any technical aspect. Perhaps you could find an Aikido school with an amazing instructor who looks at things in a unique way. You might not change your fighting style that much, but by buying into their system for a bit, you might get a whole new mindset about fighting or even life.

But no, if you go into another school thinking "This is totally inferior in every way to San Soo" from the start, you will gain nothing but bitterness towards other arts. 

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James Glinski a.k.a. Little Cricket
Yellow belt at Scrivens Academy of Martial Arts

In regards to you post above  "You might not change your fighting style that much"....

In my opinion, If you change it even a fraction, then it's no longer San Soo

This is a complete art, and I have to agree with Jeff.  

I think you will too, if you give Howard 100% and really dive into this art and his teachings.  

***A good place to meet people is in church***

If you want to learn how to fight, then you're in the right place, no need to go elsewhere.  

Salute from the heart,

 Jason Wolfe

AHHHH the old to cross train or not to cross train dilema round 1245th(DING!!!) Do I believe in Cross training YES, I think that it absolutely has its purposes, remember that this is my opinion, so hold on a minute. I think that everytime someone brings up this argument it is comnig from a practical poiint of view i.e."San Soo hade got it all, you do not need anyhting else", well ready for some news. NO San Soo does not have it all, nor should it. Imagine if you will that you truly wante dto learn the art of drawing the sword(Katana), or maybe yo uwould really like to learn the proper way of fighting with the Katana? Big problem there, I happen to know few of masters who are very well versed in wepons, yet from my understanding neither of them have studied Iaido, or Kendo etc.

I constantly amazed by those who immediately resist the idea of Cross traiing, I hate to pull back the curtain on some of you but Jimmy never taught Tactical Knife, or P.R.-22 Baton, and how many times have you heard that some of the greatest MAsters were INcredible Boxers, I don't think that Jimmy was ever golden Gloves ever? You see these men took the true essence of San Soo and applied it to other areas, now I know that youdon't think that their  San Soo suffered for it do you?

FLIP SIDE

Ok so now we have people that are crosstraining in other styles and incorporating it into the system, this makes the system weak. As my teacher put it" you can not prove the effectivness of the techniques, so it is dilluting our system",I know how popular words like MMA and BJJ and KRAV MAGA etc. have become. My question to these folks tha tinsist on adding to San Soo is this, do you really think that you could have lived long enough trained hard enough and seen enough, to make the decision that you need to add or subtract something from San Soo? Be honest.

Last and not least is the student factor, some of you won't understand this yet but hopefully one day you will. There will come a time in your training that you will want to go and explore other systems, I mean after all you are a Martial Artist right? Your san Soo may even benefit from it. I was always told that you should at least achieve the rank of 2nd Black first, I mean what good is trying something else out when you cannot even fully comprehend your own.

Good Post DVB, see ya guys soon, maybe teach ya a triangle choke LOL

H.

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"if you're going through Hell, keep going.

Churchill

H,

 Maybe it was the 1245 thing , but like you said, it's all a matter of opinion. Your teacher is very right on what he says in your 3rd paragraph.

Salute,

 Jason

 

Well,

 Here we go again....  But, the discussion is a good one, because we get to explore our own feelings about the arts in general and this one specifically.

 Howard, and others, with respect...the art of Kung Fu San Soo, does have it all!  And...yes, I mean that.  It has "it" in the sense that we train to face whatever comes at us.  The mindset of this art is to kill or be killed using whatever we can to get the job done.  Grandmaster Woo said it many many times, "Your life or mine!" 

Now, to explain further...No we don't practice BJJ or Iaido, Boxing or Kick Boxing, etc.  However, we do practice how to deal with any attack and how to work and deal with any weapon.  This is because this art was founded by warriors who knew and understood battle with a great variety of opponents.  It's true, that we do not fight with the sword in the same manner as an accomplished Iaido practitioner, but we do understand the sword in our own way - providing we have an instructor that has taught us properly, and we can, with honor and confidence face any other warrior.  And...worthy of note:  Grandmaster Woo did, in the early days (according to what I've been told by one whose instructor was there), have Tonfa classes in El Monte.  I wasn't there, but this is what I've heard.  Anyway, this is a point that really doesn't matter.  The real point is...this art is VERSATILE, we can adapt, because we've trained for battle with fierce and expert opponents.  At least, I hope we have.

 I've grown a lot over the years, some of it around the middle, and my Kung Fu has grown exponentially since even 5 years ago.  I've cross trained in Japanese and Korean arts, when I was not under a San Soo instructor, because of relocation and my sense of wanting to be better prepared to face every type of opponent.   What I found is that my time would have been much better spent, had I focused entirely on THIS art and what IT will teach me for whatever situation I face.

 I would like to throw out this thought for everyone to consider.  It is a matter of choice whether to cross train or not, but my opinion doesn't really matter so much when I'm faced with a life or death situation.  At the point of your life or mine, (what this art prepares us to be ready for) what really matters is sound training and proficiency in combat.  And this system prepares us for the ultimate in proficiency.  In all of my other training I never found anything that was addressed in a better fashion than how we address it.  I never found another package nearly as complete.

And...I mean absolutely no disrespect for other arts.  It is not with disdain towards anyone else that I speak about the effectiveness of San Soo, it is in fact, because of my respect for their proficiency at the elements of combat they prepare for that helps inspire and encourage my own training and preparation.

I admit it, I am completely biased, yet, I have a lifetime of learning poured into that bias.  I am young though, only 40 and only in this art since '79.  Perhaps time will change my mind...then again, perhaps not.

 Gentlemen and Ladies, I appreciate the discussion and hope that voicing my "opinion" has not offended you in any way.  Howard, I know that you know this, but I want everyone else to know as well.  I am privileged to count you among my friends and I know that you know, there is no personal attack intended.

 Respectfully,

Dave Lorenson

 

Howard,

 Thank you for always coming out and voicing your opinion straight.  No hesitancy.

Now, here is what I see as the greatest danger in cross training.  And I think it's dangerous, because I noticed that it happened to me and I spent a great deal of time correcting this very problem.

 The danger is: poor habits, inadequate training and wrong thinking.

Again...allow me to elaborate:

1.  Poor habits - from standard sparring (1 step, 3 step or free) we tend to develop the mindset that it is alright for us to exchange blows in order to "win".  We develop little movements to avoid certain strikes and counter with defensive or offensive moves - yet, they are always in the context of a sparring match.  This is NOT training for your life or mine.  IT IS SPORT.  My San Soo is not sport.

2.  Inadequate training - many examples could be drawn out here, but I'm going to discuss only three. 

Traditional Japanese, Korean, Phillipino, Thai and European stand up arts:  each one of the mainstream arts have certain trends that are their own, however, there are a few generalizations that can be made.  They traditionally spend most of their "technique" training in the air, or within the context of sparring where the partner is "non-cooperative".  This trains one to be very limited in their outlook about what works.  Vital areas cannot be struck because it would put a stop to this type of training.

Traditional Grappling Arts - Japanese, Korean, Chinese, European, and their off-shoots:  each one focuses on trapping and submitting or at most taking balance and throwing one opponent.  Again, incomplete.  There is no your life or mine mentality.  This places us in a wrong mindset and in many cases the wrong physicality to effectively deal with just such situations in real life scenarios.

 Non-traditional San Soo: You guys know what I'm talking about - yes, the "powder puff" brothers and sisters in "our own" art.  Though, again, I respect them for what they are.  I know that CONTACT makes all the difference.  You cannot feel and learn the power and balance of this art unless you actually make the contact (Controlled of course), make the throws and combine all of the 5 family influences in your workouts.

3.  Wrong Thinking:  Here is where there will be quite a bit of controversy I fear.  And that is: Why do you train?  Many train for sport.  If this is the why, then truly this art is NOT for you.  Yes, it is or can be a great deal of "fun".  However, what is "fun" for you?  Is it testing yourself against yourself in each and every workout - to excel and enjoy the excellence of those you workout with?  Or is it just getting together with friends and "playing" with the art?

Anyway, I've just come out pretty strongly and pretty one-sided.  I think many readers will find this closed minded and overly opinionated.  So be it.  As most of you know, I have been more than patient and conscious of other peoples feelings in my posts.  I try not to offend, be argumentative or cause divisions.  However, as I look back on previous message board discussions that have come and gone and repeated themselves here and there and have often ended without conclusion, I have decided that if this art is to thrive into the generations to come, we had better get a few things straight and talk respectfully, but honestly.

 This is how I see this art.  It was designed for battle and developed by warriors who spilled blood.  It is absolutely effective, amazingly efficient and in the hands of a man or woman with confidence and excellent training, it is altogether the most complete combat art I have ever seen or experienced.  And...even though I know I've said it before...you should at least be a black belt before you cross train - I think I was wrong.  Howard, your 2nd degree black is a better idea.  And, I think it goes beyond this...the WHY is much more important than the WHEN.

So, if you decide that cross training is for you...please do it with all of your heart and know that I still love you for being a San Soo brother or sister - I did it too.  However, in looking back, I realize now, how little I really knew about this art that Jimmy H. Woo brought us.  And...how little I still know.

 Thanks for the excellent discussion!

Respectfully,

Dave Lorenson

Live Free, Train Hard, Finish Well

Hi Jeff,

 LOL, I have to disagree with you on one point.  If you are saying that San Soo is right for you, adn that it is a complete system in your trian of thought.  Taht is fine, But for anyone to say that any one arts is the Best, or it is the complete, and there is no other...is in my opinion, arrogant.

The Japanese say their arts are complete, and all that is needed, and so  do the Koreans and Chinese...the truth is though, no art is the best.

 Only what is best for the individual that takes it.  i.e. iai-do teaches a person strict disciplne, and how to turn anything  in the street into a weapon,

without feeling awkward with it, so does escrima, and other weapons styles. So to do alot ofthe traditional Japanes, and Korean styles.  I look forward to meeting you and learning more aobut your style.  Aftaer all, we can never learn enough.

Please understand I am not saying anything agianst your style, of vhoice, only that there are other styles out there, whose practioners feel the same way.  That is why I don't get into the "my style is better than your style"  mentality.  Waht is right for the individual is what is right for  them, someone else may have found it in antoehr system.

As long as the core of any sytem does not change, then there is room to add things to it that the instructor may find helpful for hi/her studnets in the street, and after all, is that not what is most important, to be sure our studnets, regardless of style can prtect themselvess in the street?  Just my thoughts, and no insult intented to anyone of San Soo.

Peace,

Tae

 

 

 

 

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Dr. Deborah R. Williams
Founder- Tae Su Jutsu
Ga. State Representative-Unified Martial Arts Federation
U.S.Director-Practical Martial Arts
Member- International Black Dragon Kung-fu Society of Healing & Combat Arts
Baord Member-Netwok of Martial Arts

Tae,

 Just for discussion's sake, have you ever taken Jimmy H. Woo style Kung Fu San Soo?  Just wondering ....

I see that you are a founder of a martial art's system

Let us know and thanks

 

Salute,

 Jason Wolfe

"poor habits, inadequate training and wrong thinking"

AMEN!!!!!

one more time.... AMEN!!!!! 

The WRONG THINKING is what gets me the most. 

Rich - RS Kung Fu San Soo

 

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Fight or Leave. It's that simple.

Hi Jason,

NO i haven't.  As  Isaid, I ws not trying to nock San Soo, and Jeff, is coming here befreo Nasville last I heard, and I will learn more about it from him.

 

I have been in the arts for 43yrs.  I have BB ranks in more than one style, and all I was saying, is that there is no perfect style.  Including mine.  I still train with others, becaue I bleive that all styles ahve soemthing to offer...the only way anyone could say that one style is perfect above all others, is if they studied all others to know.

To say so would lead one to believe that we live in a perfect world where things of such can take place.   If a person is already a BB in one style then there is nothing wrong with cross training..but I do believe they must have a good foundation first.  I stayed with Wing Chun, even while training  training in other styles.  Until my teacher in Wing Chun died.  I can understand evreyon being loyal to your system, and i was not trying to ake nything away form that, only speaking form expeirence of studying other styles.

 

LOL, I will remember not to speak next time. 

 

Peace,

Tae

My commnet was not meant as an insult.  Only my thoughts.  I am sorry if it insulted anyone

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Dr. Deborah R. Williams
Founder- Tae Su Jutsu
Ga. State Representative-Unified Martial Arts Federation
U.S.Director-Practical Martial Arts
Member- International Black Dragon Kung-fu Society of Healing & Combat Arts
Baord Member-Netwok of Martial Arts

Tae,

  I wasn't offended at all, and I appreciate your candor.

Salute from the heart,

 Jason 

Tae,

I think I speak for everyone here when I say:

Please speak up. Dont hold back. We love having you here and appreciate your interest in us. WE are big boys and dont get offended easily, we play nice.

 We are not bashing in any way, and I hope my original post did not portray that. Just good conversation.

Jeff is a good guy and Im sure he will provide a good representation of the art.

Good to have you here.

Tae,

 I was re-reading your post to Jeff above , and in your first sentence you state, "for anyone to say that any one arts is the Best, or it is the complete, and there is no other...is in my opinion, arrogant."

Then below I found this exerpt from where you are selling your training videos online

 

"Other than the obvious of getting into shape by good physical exercise, my main concern is always the student.  For that reason there are no fancy techniques such as jump kicks, or promising the mystical, and mysterious in the tapes.  All techniques are geared toward use in the street situation.  All forms are taught in a "fighting set" which in and within itself is a self defense combination of different techniques.  The "set" can be changed around allowing freedom of experimenting with different kinds of self defense situations.  Even the exercises have been broken down to insure maximum progress and use without fear of pulling or tearing a muscle.  Tae Su Jutsu is a martial Science as well as an art.

  IN short Tae Su Jutsu is a complete system for self defense, where the is no wasted techniques, as you might see in some videos that also teach sport."

Sounds like the same stuff we are saying...

Jason

I have trained in Boxing, and Combat Ju Jit Su before Searching out San Soo. When in Viet Nam I was exposed to a group of Korean Marines that fought just like San Soo. When I came back to the U.S. I checked every listing under Korean Martial Art's in the phone book where they said they trained the military. I found none of them came close to what I had seen but they all claimed that if signed up for the long haul, I would eventually get it. Too make a long story short, if you are comfortable with your art, stay with it, don't be a jack of all trades, learning a little of this and a little of that, but never truly mastering any of them. I have found conflicts and differences in systems that can cause students to be confused over what they should be doing. In short my Grand Master once told me, "you cannot learn over 450 years in one lifetime" so why should I waste my time looking in someone else's back yard. Stay in yours or jump the fence into theirs, but stay somewhere. Make your life's training count for something. San Soo is not for everyone, but be careful of clouding your mind with training habits and techniques that are questionable or conflicting.

 Chuck

 

First and foremost I would like to thank everyone of you personally for your insight and professionalism concering this subject. I think that this is a very "HOT BUTTON" subject and I am glad that we cann attack it as True Martial artists. I am not going to comment just yet, but rest assured that , I am reading and I am very very impressed with not only the candor, but the tone of everyones response, please continue. The only thing that we are really doing here is learnng and that is a pwerful thing indeed.

The Devils Advocate,

H.

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"if you're going through Hell, keep going.

Churchill

Not Really,

 

I am saying it is a complete system of self defense..not that it is the only compelte system of self defense.  From what I have read out here, those who practice San soo, think it is the only system of self defnse, that can be vaulable.  IN my opinion, no system is.  I still get togehter woth those of other self defense systems to learn what they have that can bge useful.  From what I have been told, those who practice san Soo, do not feel it is necessary from them to do so.  Therefore my statement on arrogance. 

 Also, it is a way, to seperate TSJ from  sport systems, which I know from talking to Jeff San Soo is not a sport sytem.  To seperate a system as a compelte Self defense system from a sport system is not  the same as saying it is the ONLY self defense system.

IN short, is TSJ a complete self defense system?  Yes, as we teach only for self defense.  Is it the ONLY self defense system...NO. and there is where the difference lies.  I do not claim that my system has all the answers, but from the post I have  read ,it seemes that those who parctice Asn Soo, are making those claims.  Again, I do not mean this as an insult, only that is a person calims a system to be the only system, and not to say FOR that individual is arrogant, becaue noone can make a claim that anyone system is the only or best unless they have studied all of the systems.

Where did you find that on TSJ, I ask because Someone else is doing the website, not me, and I need to check it so it is made clear what is meant.

 

Thanks,

Tae

 

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Dr. Deborah R. Williams
Founder- Tae Su Jutsu
Ga. State Representative-Unified Martial Arts Federation
U.S.Director-Practical Martial Arts
Member- International Black Dragon Kung-fu Society of Healing & Combat Arts
Baord Member-Netwok of Martial Arts